Concerning
the question of how victorious do we have to be in order to be raptured
I think a better question is that of whether someone is IN CHRIST or
not. If one is in Christ then they are victorious enough. All the
promises of God are yes and amen to them which are IN CHRIST JESUS
(including the promise to be raptured before the hour of temptation, the
Great Tribulation Period). But none of the promises are made to anyone
who is not Abiding IN Christ Jesus. And the question then that must be
asked is what exactly constitutes being IN or Abiding IN Christ
Jesus? Is it possible for someone to be in Christ Jesus for a time and
then later to leave from being in Christ Jesus and thereby forfeit the
promises that once were theirs to claim? If it is not possible to stop
abiding in Jesus once having been in Christ then why even have the
condition that we must continue to abide in Him and His love? This
question is addressed in the scriptures and warnings are given that we
be diligent in our faith and that we make our calling and election sure
and that the beginning of our confidence must be maintained in Christ
firm unto the end so as not to be "in Christ' at one point and later
lose confidence in Him and leave off being in Christ and therefore
become no longer safe or able to enjoy the promises that being in Christ
affords one. Another aspect of this relationship with Jesus is hearing
His voice and following Him as He says in
John 10:
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
I
often hear this verse quoted but seldom is the first part emphasized as
much as the last part. Again many want to be able to claim the promises
without submitting to the conditions needed to be met for claiming
them. It follows then that if you hear Jesus' voice and you follow Him,
then you are sure to be able to claim the rest of this passage as yours
to trust in. If you do not hear His voice and do not follow Him are you
still able to claim the rest of the verse?
Take
this verse below as an example of how it has the qualifying point
that it is claimable only to them which are IN Christ Jesus our LORD
and yet Pastor Bob makes a statement before quoting this verse that is
nowhere implied in the verse although he suggests that it is by
beginning the quote after the word "FOR" leading into the verse as if
his statement is proved by the verse. From Pastor Bob's post on "All
Christians Sin...":
...nor can a saved person be lost, for nothing can "separate" us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." -(Romans 8:38-39).
This
verse promises that in Christ Jesus our Lord nothing can separate us
from the love of God. That is all that this verse is saying if we are
honest with the simple text. As long as one is in Christ, then no
persecution or hardship or angels or things present or things to come
etc. can separate him from the love
of God. Where does this verse promise that we can never be lost if we
are once saved? It does not promise that at all. If a person chooses to
leave Jesus (like the church at Ephesus which left its first love) and
place his confidence in some other way or doctrine, (like some of the
other churches did) then he has just violated the terms of the covenant
and forfeited all the promises of God including the one above about not
being separated from the love of God. How could it be that you cannot be
separated from the love of God and yet be told by Jesus that they did
exactly that in the Ephesus church? He said THEY LEFT their first love
not that some force dragged them against their will away from
it. Nowhere does Romans 8:38-39 suggest that leaving from being in
Christ is not possible once someone has been there. Just like the
friends and family of Rehab the harlot who were safe in her house while
Israel attacked the city because of the
covenant of the blood red chord out the window, everyone who stayed IN
Rehab's house throughout the attack all the way to the end was
covenanted to remain safe. But if anyone in that house were to lose
confidence in the promise and leave from the safety of the house during
the battle and they were killed, then their blood was on their own head
meaning they were no longer under the protection of the covenant and
could die as if they were never in the house to begin with. To suggest
that someone could leave from the boundaries of the covenant thereby
violating its terms and yet remain protected by the promises of it is
not wise and is nowhere promised in the scriptures but rather grave
warnings are given not to do so. In fact it says it is worse for one to
do this than if they had never been under the covenant to begin with.
Such warnings are there for a reason and become meaningless if such a
leaving is not even possible. Nor is it wise to suggest
that any such warnings or terms as this do not apply to the church
today but are only for Israel, when we know that Jesus is addressing the
church at Ephesus about leaving their love for Him. Whoever has ears to
hear let him hear what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES.
We
must also be careful to recognize that in the parable of the sower
sowing the Word, all three groups which bore fruit, some 30 some 60 some
100 fold, are found only among the "good soil" Christians and none are
found in the other soils where seed was also scattered and among two of
the others was received and grew up. Bad soil Christians therefore
cannot be said to have even some 30 or 60 fold fruit yield even
though these ALSO RECEIVED the word with gladness and grew up for a time
(they're Christians) but because there was 1. no depth in them in the
rocky soil group they withered in the hot sun representing persecutions
which offended them
and they bore NO fruit. 2. Likewise the seed which fell among weeds
also was received and grew up and was looking good but it became choked
by the weeds which are cares of the world and they also bore NO fruit
whatsoever. Only the good soil Christians bore fruit for they grew all
the way to maturity and bore some 30 some 60 some 100 fold but all three
amounts are found ONLY in the GOOD SOIL group. Not transferable over to
those who ALSO RECEIVED THE WORD but bore ZERO fruit because they were
hindered before maturing enough to be able to bear fruit. Therefore only
the good soil group were 30, 60, or 100 fold and all of them are able
to claim the rapture whether 30 fold 60 or 100 fold. Just don't be
fooled into thinking that the 30 fold group or 60 fold group is
referring to the NO fruit ones as though they too can expect to be
raptured. You also cannot say that these were never Christians at all
because In order to even grow for a time at
all it is necessary is that these also were for a time IN CHRIST JESUS
for without HIM we can do nothing including sprout up at all. Indeed
there was also seed that fell among the hard path where birds devoured
it and it did not grow at all and these represent total non Christians
who heard the word but never received it at all. That is they never
became Christians even though they heard the word. The question then
becomes who will ABIDE, that is remain all the way to the end IN CHRIST
JESUS even if it means giving up all the cares of this world (weeds) so
that the word is not choked out of your life and being willing and able
to suffer persecutions for His sake because your roots go deep in the
good soil not being hindered by the shallow soil where rocks prevent the
word from being able to sustain through the heat of the sun
(persecutions for your faith). Whoever loves his life will lose it and
whoever loses his life will keep
it unto eternal life.
John 15
1. I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every
branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more
fruit.
3. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in
him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do
nothing.
6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch,
and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and
they are burned.
7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be
done unto you.
8. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have
kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
If
we read this as written we notice that there are conditions to claiming
Jesus' love, promises and protection. And that the condition includes
that we ABIDE IN HIM and Continue in His LOVE against all temptations to
do otherwise. This abiding in Jesus is what will bring forth the fruit
required by the Father and will result in the kind of "victorious" life
that Pastor Bob is asking about in his question:
All Doves:
I could express the title of this post another way, "How victorious do we
have to be, to be Raptured?"
So
to me the question should not be "How victorious do we have to be to be
raptured?" Because in Jesus we are all the way victorious and out of
Jesus we are all the way not victorious and there is no mixing of those
two. It matters where you are today while it is called today don't
harden your heart. A better question then would be are we in Christ,
hearing His voice, following Him and abiding in His love and therefore, a
member of the good soil group, bearing at least the 30 fold amount of
fruit? If so, then I believe that person is going in the rapture. But
the cares of this world or persecutions are what can hinder the word
from maturing us to fruit bearing. What the scriptures say is that
anyone who is not bearing fruit will be cast forth as a branch and
withered and men gather those sticks (during the tribulation period) to
be burned. Again they can still be saved yet so
as by fire of the tribulation. Jesus clearly says "every branch IN ME
that does not bear fruit he taketh away..." It never qualifies this with
some suggestion that once you are in Christ you have nothing to worry
about because all the promises are yours to claim from then on no matter
what you do or do not do. If it does not matter, then why is Jesus
listing things that He has against certain churches? If it does not
matter then He should just say, "Oh well, I paid the way so just come on
in even though you didn't obey my covenant terms, I'll just credit you
with having done it just the same because that's the way men's
traditions have been teaching it for so long now..." Jesus said
nevertheless when He comes shall He find the faith in the earth as
though not a lot will have been doing it like He instructed.
Pastor Bob's suggestion that a "partial rapture" denies
part of the value of the death of Jesus
Christ. The Partial Rapture, infers that good works of a Christian
believer gives him a special standing with God that makes him eligible
for the Rapture. ...Think of this error like God is doing 50% of the
work and man doing 50%.
No, this is
not what is being suggested at all. Rather there are terms of the
covenant between God and us that must be met in order for us to be able
to claim the completed work of Jesus on our behalf. In no way is there a
suggestion that Jesus' sacrifice was not sufficient. In no way is there
a suggestion that we make up by our works of the law some part of our
salvation. However, If we do not value Jesus' sacrifice for us enough to
be willing to forsake all and follow Him, then we are saying that some
other person, place or thing is of more value than Jesus and His gift to
us is and this is what causes Him to say that we are not worthy of Him.
This, He calls unbelief in Him.
"This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent."
Much like Esau valuing food over his Birthright and God took it from him
because of his profane inability to properly asses the true value of
God's gift. Jacob was a liar, not worthy in that sense but he valued the
Birthright and for that God chose him and rejected the "better" son as
far as works were concerned. Never once is there a suggestion in this
that Jesus' death was not enough to pay for our sins. That is not even
being addressed because He was sufficient. I must value Him enough to
forsake all and follow Him to the end and if I am not willing to do
this, then He is not willing to extend His gift of sacrifice to me and
He leaves me to save myself, which of course I am not able to do. Only
by doing this will those who miss the rapture finally understand the
true value of His sacrifice and become willing to die to themselves in
the tribulation period by being beheaded for
Christ and by this be saved (the great multitude that no man could
number). They could have lost their lives willingly now as "living
sacrifices" wholly acceptable to God but they were unwilling to do this
and have been taught that it was not necessary to do this to be saved.