RON: I AM WELL AWARE THAT MANY, INCLUDING YOU, BELIEVE THAT THE RAPTURE TAKES PLACE IN REV. 4. YOU MAY BE RIGHT. PERSONALLY, THE ONLY TIME THAT I AM CONVINCED THAT THE RAPTURE TAKES PLACE IS AT THE TIME OF THE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. I SEE THE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION TAKING PLACE IN THE 2ND SEAL JUDGMENT.SHERRY: OK. But then let me ask you this: WHO do you say are the Elders seen in the throne room in Revelation 4 - if not the Old Testament Righteous and the recently resurrected & raptured saints...who have already received white robes, falling down before Him who sat on the throne, worshipping Him?RON: THE OTHER POINT I WANT TO BRING OUT IS THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE BOOK OF REVELATION WAS WRITTEN CHRONOLOGICALLY. IF I HAD THE TIME, I COULD SHOW YOU NUMEROUS EXAMPLES AS TO HOW IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING IN REVELATION TO OCCUR CONSECUTIVELY. THEREFORE, IT IS MY CONCLUSION THAT, EVEN IF THE RAPTURE TAKES PLACE IN REV. 4, THAT IS NO PROOF THAT NONE OF THE 21 JUDGMENTS HAVE YET TAKEN PLACE.SHERRY: I do not believe the Book of Revelation is in chronological order either! It goes forward, doubles back, pauses, and continues. The reason I believe that Revelation 4 indicates the Resurrection/Rapture is partly because it comes after the Letters to the Church, and the Church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3. That "a door was opened in heaven" and a "trumpet is heard" and there is a statement made to "come up hither" may indicate the Resurrection/Rapture occurs at this point; but it's really unnecessary to debate it since we base our understanding of the timing of the resurrection/rapture, not upon the order in Revelation, but upon the factor that the Accuser (satan) is no longer accusing (because he is engaged in a heavenly battle with Michael and his angels....thus, Jesus need no longer remain in his Office of Advocacy and will descend from Heaven with a shout "Come up hither!".....resurrecting and changing us to enter Heaven and stand before the Bema Judgment where we will receive our white robes and crowns, and watch as He is handed the Scroll which no one else was found worthy to open. Jesus will then begin breaking the Seals.But allow me to make a comment regarding the issue of "21 judgments." The 7 Seals themselves are NOT judgments per say. They are capsule summaries of what each Seal will entail. The trumpet and vial judgments will be seen in each Seal as they are opened.....they are the cause and effect of each Seal.RON: I RECENTLY WROTE A SERIES OF POSTS ON "THE TWO REVEALINGS OF THE ANTICHRIST" THEY CAN BE VIEWED ON 5 DOVES. THE 2ND REVEALING, TO THE WHOLE WORLD, TAKES PLACE ON APR. 11, 2012, WHEN OBAMA WILL RECOVER FROM HIS MORTAL HEAD WOUND, AND BEGIN HIS 1260-DAY REIGN, DURING THE TIME OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION. THE 1ST REVEALING, TO DISCERNING CHRISTIANS, HAS TAKEN PLACE ON OCT. 29, 2008, WHEN HE WAS REVEALED TO HAVE CONFIRMED THE COVENANT OF DAN. 9:27 IN FRONT OF MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE TO CHANGE THE WORLD. THIS IS WHAT THE ANTICHRIST DOES.SHERRY: I believe Obama is the (as yet unrevealed) antichrist. But I do not agree with you that he "confirmed the covenant" with his pre-election campaign statements "CONFIRMING his platform, his campaign promises, his COVENANT, with the people, to CHANGE THE WORLD."The reason I do not agree is because of the definition of what THE COVENANT IS. Daniel knew (and the Israeli Jews know) what THE COVENANT is. It is the Abrahamic Covenant God made regarding the LAND He promised would forever belong to Abraham and his descendants. Whether it comes before, at, or after the "sudden destruction," the antichrist is going to acknowledge and confirm that Covenant AND guarantee Israel's "peace & security" in order to reinforce and strengthen Israel's "right to exist" in the Land. In this sense, Obama becomes their "messiah." A Jew's understanding of the messiah is someone who is going to "deliver them" - the same as they thought Jesus would deliver them from the Romans and bring in the kingdom in which Israel would be head. (For them, the messiah is a man, not God.) BUT....when the antichrist declares himself "god", the Jews will realize he is NOT their messiah! Those who flee and will be protected by God during the great tribulation are the Remnant whom Jesus will lead out of hiding when He returns. They are the Remnant who will "see Him the second time" and will finally believe the Son of Man was and is the Son of God!It is easy to see Obama's hostility toward Israel. Yet for all his evident hostility, he still testifies with lying lips as if to defend her;
from IsraelPundit >
but I believe something will happen (perhaps with the Palestinian two-state solution cause) which will motivate Obama to "acknowledge, confirm, strengthen, and guarantee" Israel's "right to exist" (which is the Covenant of Daniel 9:27). The "solution/declaration" he proposes for the Middle East conflict will have even Israel praising him....but when he is empowered by satan (who has been cast down to the earth) he will exalt himself and commit the Abomination, declaring himself god - which will induce the Remnant to flee. And thus the antichrist will be revealed for who he is and the great tribulation will be underway with the opening of the First Seal.....the rider going forth to conquer (the saints.)RON: HAS THIS 1ST SEAL BEEN ALREADY OPENED WITH OBAMA'S DEALINGS? FIRST, HE "GOES FORTH". HE SEEMS TO SPEND ALMOST AS MUCH TIME OVERSEAS AS HE DOES IN THE U.S. IT IS BECAUSE HIS NEW WORLD ORDER AGENDA IS TO PREPARE THE WAY FOR ONE-WORLD GOVERNMENT. HE IS CONQUERING THE MINDS AND HEARTS OF MILLIONS, ESPECIALLY THE MUSLIMS, WORLDWIDE BY HIS ACTIONS AND HIS WORDS, AND HIS IDEOLOGIES..... HE IS "CONQUERING", OR DESTROYING, THE UNITED STATES FROM WITHIN. HE IS "SUBDUING" THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE AND THE CONGRESS. HE WON THE "VICTORY" IN 2008. HE WILL "OVERCOME" AND "PREVAIL", IN EARLY 2012, WHEN HE GETS THE "VICTORY", ONCE AGAIN, BY BECOMING THE NEW WORLD ORDER DICTATOR.SHERRY: Again, I must ask you: if the First Seal has already been opened, WHO are the Elders round about the throne who witness Jesus taking the Scroll in His Hand?Obama "goes forth" traveling about the globe as the President of the United States of America. He is furthering his "credibility." He will never be in control of a total one-world government! Subjugated under the antichrist authority, some nations will grow dissatisfied and will rebel (Daniel 11:40). The kingdoms of the south and north will march against the antichrist, who will pour over countries like a 'flood' to meet these armies in the “Beautiful Land” of Israel (Daniel 11:40-41)You may apply Obama's "conquering" to the minds and hearts of millions, but the conquering that will take place out of the First Seal by the satan-driven antichrist will be a conflagration of domination and conquest in overcoming God's people the Jews and those who come to faith after the Rapture.Yes, I too believe Obama is destroying our "Republic" with his socialist agenda; and I also believe, like you, that he will "prevail" in early 2012 as the antichrist and that he will be empowered to continue for 42 months. Isn't it odd that you and I have arrived at the same time frame, albeit from a different understanding? You say that " On Oct. 29, 2008, Obama was revealed to have confirmed the covenant of Daniel 9:27.......but I believe that on Rosh HaShanah, September 30, 2008 the 70th Week of Daniel began with the new Sabbatical cycle of the last week before the return of Christ!To conclude, I believe the appointed time of the opening of the Seals has not yet happened because the Elders who are seen in the throne room before Christ is handed the Scroll to break open the Seals are the representation of the resurrected and raptured church saints AND the righteous Old Testament saints "who are not made complete without us."...so, obviously, the Resurrection/Rapture has not yet happened.I believe we will be in Heaven to see Jesus take the scroll in His hand and open the Seals of Judgment.RON: THE MOST IMPORTANT BIBLE PROPHECY, THAT ALMOST ALL WATCHERS CAN AGREE ON, IS THAT WE ARE LIVING IN EXTREMELY EXCITING TIMES, AS WE ALL ANTICIPATE BEING WITH JESUS FOREVER IN THE VERY, VERY NEAR FUTURE. WHAT AN EXCITING DAY TO BE A BIBLICAL WATCHMAN!SHERRY: That, I can agree on!!!!Until.....Sherry Vance
