Paul,
I can see by your posts
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/march2011/paulw328-2.htm
that you have been casting your bait in the water hoping that someone
would take the challenge and explain to you why some of us believe
that the first four seals have already been opened. You appear to be
verbally and scripturally ready to defend your
pre-trib rapture and then the
first four seals are opened position to anyone who will take your
bait. Well then----consider me tugging on your line.
First of all most people (and probably you) believe that the seals are
opened in a relatively short period of time---weeks, months or years
right during the tribulation timeframe. What if instead we were
talking about a couple of centuries in time when the first five seals
were being opened? That would change the whole picture would it not?
Leaving the door wide open for the Rapture to happen at the opening of the sixth
seal as many of us believe. So lets go through the first five seals,
throw out the narrow time frame, think out of the box, and see if anything makes
sense.
So not seeing any scriptural reason why these first five seals have to be
fit into any short time frame lets take a fresh look at them and God's wording
of them. The first seal says "And I looked, and
behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow: and a crown was given to him,
and he went out conquering and to
conquer." Is there anyone in history that
"exactly" fits this description? There is indeed, Napoleon Bonaparte is an exact
fit for the meaning of the first seal. He was a crowned emperor of
France and he is always portrayed on a
white horse. He was a military man (bow) who went out conquering and to conquer.
But of all his conquests and they were many, the most important one scripturally
was that he put an end to the Roman Catholic Church and the popes ruling Europe
and most of the civilized world at that time. From a scriptural viewpoint this
was a huge milestone in history. And if you read far enough into this article
you'll see how important it was.
The second seal reads "Another horse, fiery red,
went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the
earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a
great sword." Again was there a time in history when
this happened? I believe this seal was fulfilled in World War II. Peace was
taken from the whole world and millions of people were killed as a result of it.
And was a great sword given to him (mankind) at this time? Yes the nuclear
bomb was given---the greatest sword the world had or has ever
known.
The third seal reads "So I looked, behold, a black
horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a
voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, a quart of wheat for a
denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and so do not harm the oil
and the wine." I believe the wording of this
seal speaks to this present time. When one sees a set of scales they
think of the legal system. Justice of the good "weighing" out over
evil. But God said in the latter days they would call evil good and good evil.
We see that everywhere in our society and churches today whether it be
abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage, and the injustice list goes on and
on. Then the wording of the seal speaks of famine and food shortages which are
happening around the world at an alarming rate. Then the wording says don't mess
with the oil or the wine.The whole world is jockeying for who can control the
oil. The world's governments in this day and age will not function
without oil. And don't mess with the wine---wine representing having a "good
time". Most of the world in this technological age is just focused on the
pleasures of the world and are focused only on that and could care less about
God or His ways. Just keep the wine and the good times
rolling.
The fourth seal reads "So I looked and behold, a
pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was death, and Hades followed with
him." And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with
sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth." I believe the wording of this seal speaks of the present time as
well. I believe we witnessed the pale horse riding in the streets of Cairo a few
weeks ago announcing that there would be an Islamic uprising that would
encompass one fourth of the earth. This uprising would lead to hunger and great
death. Notice it doesn't say that one fourth of the earth would be killed, it
says that this (Islamic) force had power over one fourth of the
earth---big difference. And being that this uprising is Islamic and the
followers do not accept Jesus as their savior then indeed Hades or hell will be
their fate.
The fifth seal happens in heaven and we on earth will have no idea when
that seal has been opened. The fifth seal opening is when Jesus wakes up all the
souls of the people who have accepted Him over the centuries. He prepares
them to be soon joined in the clouds at the Rapture with those of us on
earth who are His. He instructs them to wait a little while longer----presumably
until He cracks the sixth seal.
Then Jesus opens the sixth seal------Rather than rewrite this all again,
I'll copy and attach the article I wrote last week that explains the sixth seal
and then what I believe happens after that---just below. And Paul I hope this
satisfies the challenge you put out there for someone to step up and explain why
the Rapture happens not before but after the first five seals.
With the opening of the sixth seal in Rev.6:12-17 there will be a
great earthquake, much much worse than the Japanese quake. Maybe a 10 or an 11+
on the Richter scale. Whereas the quake in Japan moved the whole country a few
inches, verse 14 says the earthquake that accompanies the Rapture will
move every mountain and island worldwide out of their places. The
force of this earthquake will set of volcanoes around the planet and the ash
from these will turn the view of the sun black and the moon will appear as
blood.
It's at that moment that Christ will Rapture His Church. Millions of
people will be taken in the twinkling of an eye to meet Him in the clouds. The
dead in Christ will rise first and will be followed by we in Christ who are
alive.
Also at that very time the heavens will be cleansed of Satan and his
fallen angels for in verse 13 the stars (angels) of heaven fell to the earth.
The heavens will not be occupied by Christ's Church (good) and Satan and
his cohorts (evil) at the same time. Verse 14 says the sky as we would view
it will appear to roll up as a scroll---- as if maybe to open into another
dimension. A dimension that draws into it the bride of
Christ and spits out Satan and his fallen angels.
This all happens as the sixth seal is broken and then we the
Church show up in heaven as per Rev.7:9-17 before the seventh seal is
opened. We as His Church will escape the tribulation wrath
as Jesus promised we would because in verses 17 of Rev. 6 after He
has just Raptured us it states---"the day of His wrath has come".
What then happens next on earth?? Many have
speculated as to what they believe will happen after the Rapture using Holy
scripture as their guide, here is what I see as to that
scenario.
The world will be in extreme chaos. In the geographic region where the
unprecedented earthquake and likely immense tsunami took place there will
be total destruction. It will cripple the economy of that nation and
or nations near the epicenter and will result in a global economic
collapse. The world economy has been teetering on the edge of collapse and this
event will completely cripple it.
Millions of people will be missing from around the planet and those
who are still on earth will be demanding answers as to where their loved ones
have vanished to. Someone will step forward to answer the questions and calm the
populous. Is there a world leader with that kind of "universal" clout that the
world populous would trust and believe for the answers? Lets look to
the scriptures for the answer to that question.
The bible states that a beast with seven heads and ten horns will rise
up and the dragon (Satan) will give this beast (the anti-christ) his
power, his throne and his great authority. He (the anti-christ) was given a
mouth speaking great things---in other words he will mesmerize the planet with
his speaking abilities and will have the answers to the world's pressing
questions as to what just happened to millions of people. What else does
the bible say about this beast with seven heads and ten horns? It says that this
beast was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to
perdition. And it says that those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose
names are not written in the Book of Life (most of those left behind after the
Rapture) when they see this beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
So this will be a person who was alive and died and his
bodily form will ascend out of the bottomless pit and miraculously appear to be
alive to completely marvel the world. The people of the earth will be so blown
away by this famous person who has just returned from the dead----- and so
starved for answers---- that they will hang on his every
word.
Is there any more scripture that points to who this person is or was
that will identify him and explain why the whole world will follow
him resulting in such a great deception? Yes, the bible explains this
in a verbal puzzle. In John the apostle's vision in Rev.17 he saw seven
kings. Five had fallen, one was in power at the time of his vision and one
had not yet come. The one to come would continue a short time. And to
complicate it further one of these seven kings who was king and had died
would return to be the eight king. This eighth king according to scripture will
be the beast of seven heads and ten horns---the
anti-christ.
So can we take facts from our world history to ascertain who this
eighth king / beast is----- that will completely mesmerize and deceive the
planet? I believe we can. It wasn't until 1929 that the Vatican
State became it's own country and had its own king. Now that it
is it's own country the pope is the rightful king of that country. Since 1929
there have been seven pope / kings and the next will be the eighth. So lets
plug John's vision from Rev. 17 into the historical facts. John sees seven kings
(popes). Five have died, the sixth who John is focused on in his
vision is Pope John Paul II. The seventh in his vision is yet to be (Pope
Benedict---the present pope) and the eight king who was one of the
seven will be the beast (the anti-christ) the one who John was focused
on--- John Paul II. (And for all you Doves that are seeing 11 and wondering
why---those two Roman numerals behind John Paul's name look a lot like an 11 to
me.)
So we have a pope who the whole world loved during his
long reign. A pope who had ecumenical gatherings in Rome from religions all
other the planet. He gathered Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu's, Jews, Catholics,
Protestants, American Indians, snake worshipers, etc. all to Rome on the
same stage for the biggest ecumenical meeting the world had ever seen. This
is the man who after the Rapture will miraculously appear with all the answers
to quell the chaos. And just as in the medieval period for
centuries when the popes ruled the world----he, John Paul II will
again rule the world for 42 months.
The bible says the seven heads of the beast stand for seven
mountains----Rome is the city built on seven hills / mountains. The bible says
the ten horns of the beast are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet,
but will receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. The political
power brokers of the Catholic Church the Jesuits have already broken the planet
into ten sections for their "ten king" future rulings. Any
Catholic who has been steeped in that religion (as I was) and reads Rev.17
and 18 will realize the descriptions there are without a
doubt describing the Catholic Church and its workings. The Catholic
Church was not in existence when John wrote the book of Revelation----- yet he
described it and it's workings in Rev. 17 and 18 as if he was
witnessing the facts today. (Bible prophecy is amazing
stuff)
The Vatican has an intelligence service that some say is
unrivaled on the planet .And its worldwide Jesuit political power structure
has been well established for centuries and will have no problem
ruling. The bible says that 10 areas of the world will be of one mind and will
give their power and authority to the beast--- the anti-christ--- who will rule
from Rome.
I believe the Muslims will become a non player after Israel severely
weakens them in the Psalms 83 and Isaiah 17 war. And the remainder of
Muslims and Russia will soon after be out of the picture when God the
Father personally deals with them in Ezek. 38 and 39.
And sadly I believe the United States was taken out of the picture
with the initial horrendous Rapture earthquake and possible Yellowstone
volcano that took place on its soil decimating the country. A two hundred
million man army (has to be the Far East) squares off for battle and
the result of this battle is that one third of mankind---two and a half billion
people--- are killed, most likely in a nuclear exchange. I
believe that Pakistan, India, China and North and South Korea will
participate in this exchange and it will have been orchestrated
and arranged by four angels that God had prepared specifically for
that task. And this is as per Rev.9:14-19
Basically what you have left is the anti-christ ruling what's
left of the planet from Rome. His main mission will be to destroy
God's chosen people the Jews and he will make every effort to do
so---- being successful in killing two thirds of them. At some point as per
scripture the anti-christ's 10 area world forces will be gathered
together and will make war with the Lamb (Jesus) and His "chosen" and
"faithful" forces. The Lamb will overcome them. Then God will put it in the
hearts of the 10 area anti-christ world forces to turn on this evil system
headquartered in Rome and destroy it----not only in Rome but world wide. As
per Rev.17:12-18.
At that point Jesus with gather up Satan, the anti-christ, the false
prophet and the rest of the bad guys and deal with them. Satan will be bound and
thrown in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. The anti-christ, the false
prophet and the bad guys will be thrown into the lake of fire for eternity.Jesus
will establish His millennium kingdom on earth for a thousand
years.
Please forgive me, obviously there are many many more idiosyncrasies
and details about the whole scenario I neglected to mention but I tried to
hit the high points.
Christ be with you,
John B