Doves,
You fellow Doves are some of the most educated bible scholars on the planet, so I need your insight.
For the most part you Doves have been educated not by man but by reading God’s word and asking / praying to Him for discernment. He has answered those prayers through the Holy Spirit that dwells inside you to reveal the true meanings of scripture.
With that in mind and after reading last weeks post by Pineman from the late writings of Jack Kelley (who I greatly admired)…… please show me where in the Book of Revelation (or in the entirety of the bible) that it states that the seven seals are judgments.
I believe this whole theory to be a serious false teaching…….
To my knowledge there is no verbiage by the author John stating that the seals are judgments……. and it was only because of the seals perceived content that somehow it was assumed they were judgments.
If they were judgments then certainly the entire cosmos would not have (past tense) exploded in unspeakable joy when Jesus (who was found worthy) stepped forward as the one to open the seals.
Yes, as per scripture, the four living creatures, the 24 elders, untold millions of angels, every creature which is in heaven, on and under the earth and in the sea erupted with joy, excitement and complete bliss.
Now do you really believe that all of creation would have been this excited if the seals were judgments? Do you really believe these trillions of beings would cheer on death and destruction by an all loving God if that’s what the seals were? Absolutely not…….they would have been very very sad and subdued.
In my opinion we have been seriously misled by false teachers on this topic.
And…. I am not calling the late Jack Kelley a false teacher but in my opinion he was influenced by some of the “tainted / tampered with Kool-Aid” when he discussed this topic.
The obvious question then would be………what are the seals that are administered by Jesus if they are not judgments?
That’s easy, they are and have been (past tense) over the centuries and will be in the future loving interventions. Interventions for His church and the Jews that could only be administered by a loving God (Jesus) that was found worthy. Worthy because He sacrificed Himself on the cross for the whole human race.
You Doves know we are at war with Satan and have been since Adam and Eve. And you also know that Satan has tried every trick in his arsenal to capture the souls of mankind for himself and rob God of a righteous harvest at the end of the age. And you also know that he (Satan) was given reign of this planet when Adam and Eve sinned.
What I am saying is….. the deck was stacked in Satan’s favor against God the Father’s chosen, the Jews…… and Jesus’ Christian church. We are and were looking at a war of good against evil and Satan as ruler of the planet had little opposition. Until……. Until Jesus entered the fray on the side of mankind and died on the cross for our salvation.
This made Him and only Him worthy…..worthy to do what? Worthy to intervene on our behalf over all these centuries since His crucifixion.
Had He not intervened there would be no Jews left or a Christian church to rapture in the end days, they would have been eradicated by the earthly Satanic demonic system years and centuries ago.
But Jesus was found worthy to intervene on our behalf over the centuries to keep us from being eradicated. And, I believe, the bible lists these major interventions that have happened over the centuries and will happen in the future since Jesus’ death on the cross ……..as the seven SEALS.
Let’s look at these seals and see where I believe Jesus intervened for us over the past 2000+ years.
Seal 1.....And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
There was a time in the last 2000 years that Satan was winning and Christ's church and the Jews were in jeopardy of being eradicated but Jesus intervened at the first seal. In the Middle Ages the Roman Catholic Church under the Vatican and the papal popes murdered a least 60 million true Christians and Jews that would not bow to the demonic authority of Rome. (Satan was winning the battle)This went on for centuries until Jesus intervened by opening the first seal allowing Napoleon Bonaparte to conquer Europe and put an end to the power of the papal states.... and then the slaughter ended. And yes, Napoleon was famous for riding a white horse. He was the conqueror of Europe (crown) and was a great military man (bow).
Seal 2....And another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
There was another time in the last 2000 years that Christ's church, the Jews and the whole earth was in jeopardy of being destroyed. Again I believe that Jesus intervened and oversaw the happenings of this period (this seal) to insure the survival of the Jews, His Church and the earth in general. The period I speak of is World War II. (Satan was winning again) Germany under the demonic Nazis were hell bent on the eradication of the Jews and true Christians. They rolled over Europe and North Africa like a plague. They formed a pact with Japan to conquer the entire world and in the process started a world war and took peace from the earth. The German's were on the verge of perfecting the first nuclear bomb (great sword) which would have given the planet to Satan. But Jesus was there to oversee this period, this second seal, to prevent this from occurring. I believe He delayed Germany and advanced America with the building of the hydrogen bomb which again saved the Jews, the true Christians and the world from Satan's control.
Remember....we do not fight flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
So we are badly outnumbered and periodically Jesus has to intervene on our behalf or the bad guys would win. Kind of like a bunch of baby ducks living on a pond full of alligators......hence His seal two intervention.
Seal 3....So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.
I believe this seal speaks to the economic factors of the planet. If you are like me you can't understand how the whole deck of economic cards has not completely fallen. Almost every country on the planet is way way way beyond bankrupt. The greed and outright monetary stealing (lawlessness) that is going on with no consequences is unbelievable. Satan is very pleased. What is preventing the complete economic collapse resulting in chaos and anarchy? I believe Jesus is, through His intervention with the third seal. Why? maybe because the fullness of the church is not complete. It doesn't matter how broke the planet is, people still just want to party..party..party. Hence...do not harm the oil and the wine.
Seal 4...So I looked and behold, a pale horse. And the name who sat on him was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death and by the beasts of the earth.
This is an easy one. This seal speaks of Islam "the religion of Death". A fourth of the world's population and a fourth of the land mass is controlled by Islam. In the lands under their control they kill, starve and butcher anyone they choose who will not join their Death cult. They believe if they die as a martyr for Allah that they will go to paradise but what awaits them and follows them is Hades. We saw the Islamic pale green horse ride on worldwide TV during the riots in Cairo. Satan has the Muslims worked up into a demonic frenzy. They are willing to commit mass suicide around the planet to eradicate the Jews, the Christians and anyone else who won't bow to their demonic religion.
Please take note that this scripture (seal) states that power was given to them (Muslims) to control one quarter of the earth's geography and in this land mass that they control they will kill with the sword, butcher and starve people. It does not say that one fourth of the planet will be killed.
Islam does control the geography of one fourth of the earth at the present time and all one needs to do is read the newspaper or watch the TV news to see that they are doing all the horrible things spoken of in this fourth seal......right now!!! I recently wrote a three part series to Doves detailing God's exceedingly great end times army spoken of many times in scripture. He appears to use this army as per scripture to eradicate over two billion people. It is my belief that it will be another one of His seal interventions (the fourth) when He eradicates all people who have signed up for and who support the demonic Islamic religion of death. The bible says that a third of the population of the planet will be killed by this army. The Muslims alone don't account for quite that big a number but when you add in their supporters and other Muslim enablers it does account for one third the population of the planet. If you have any misguided leanings in supporting or condoning this demonic Muslim religion or it's followers (including Palestinians) you might want to reconsider. When God unleashes His end time army you don't want to be on His two billion eradication hit list.
Seal 5....I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then a white robe was given to them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Have you ever heard the biblical expression---absent from the body, present with the Lord? Well if you die "in Christ", meaning that during your life you made a conscious decision to accept Jesus Christ and the bloody sacrifice He made on your behalf on the cross then you are His for eternity. So when you die, not your physical body but your soul goes immediately to Him (present with the Lord) but the consciousness of your soul appears to be asleep and you may have no concept of time. Now from Christ's sacrifice on the cross to the present, there are untold millions of people that have accepted Him and untold millions who were viciously martyred for Him. (for example--many many millions of true Christians and Jews were martyred by the Catholic Church in the Middle ages) The souls of all those people have been present with the Lord but asleep since their deaths. God seems to explain this clearly in…
1 Thess.4:13-18
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."
So the souls of these millions and millions of people who have been asleep some from nearly 2000 years ago, some from two moments ago, are awaken from their sleep as Jesus opens the fifth seal. A lot of them are very angry because they were violently killed for their belief in Jesus throughout the ages and are crying out to Him. They want to know how long it will be before Jesus judges those on earth who killed them. Jesus gives them all white robes and tells them to rest, and that they will have to wait "a little while longer" until the number of His believers is complete.
Obviously there is a total accumulated number of fellow servants, a human goal if you will, a preconceived quantity of believers that has to be reached before the Rapture of the church will happen. ( not my words but the Lords.…… in Rev.6:11)We on earth will not know when this total quantity of believers has been reached or when this fifth seal has been opened in heaven but it appears that the first three seals have been opened and the believers in Christ are being added to this total at a rapid rate. Christians are dying and being martyred around the world at an unprecedented accelerated rate whether it be in Iraq, Syria, Nigeria, Sudan, Pakistan, Egypt, Indonesian or most any Muslim country there is. And now Europe and the west.
How does Jesus lovingly intervene in the fifth seal? He brings back to life (consciousness) millions of His followers who have been “asleep in Jesus”. 1 Thessalonians 4:14
The sixth seal.....
When this preconceived quantity of believers has been reached from the fifth seal and the time is right Jesus will once again intervene and open the sixth seal.
It is my belief using many other scripture cross references that many things happen when Jesus and God the Father intervene “during the timeframe” of the sixth seal. Revelation 6 lists many of the events as does many other areas of scripture.
Here are some of the events listed in Revelation 6 set to happen during the timeframe of the sixth seal…… but not all at the same instant as Jesus intervenes in this seal. I am also including my interpretation of the phrases used in these verses of scripture and I will include other related scriptures I believe are applicable.
1) A "world wide" earthquake will shake the planet
2) The sun will blacken in color whether due to an eclipse or volcanic dust as many volcanoes erupt as a result of the worldwide earthquake
3) The moon will appear red whether from a lunar eclipse or from volcanic dust
4) The sky as we view it will appear to roll up like a scroll maybe allowing transport up or down from another dimension.
5) The stars of heaven will fall to the earth like a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. This may represent a large meteor shower of small meteors or as I believe, the word “star” in the bible also represents angels…… meaning that at some time during the timeframe of the sixth seal Satan's angels will be cast to earth.
6) All levels of humanity will try to hide themselves from the "face" of Him that sits on the throne and from His wrath....Rev.6:15-16
7) The Ezekiel 38 and 39 war / event will start with this same "world wide" earthquake Ezekiel 38:19
8) As per Ezekiel 38:18 God the Father (He who sits on the throne) will intervene on Israel behalf and in doing so He will show His "face" to Israel's enemies literally melting their eyes from their heads and their tongues from their months before their bodies hit the ground. Notice that the same terminology is used in Revelation 6:16 and Ezekiel 38:18 concerning the “face” of God the Father tying the time frame of the Ezekiel 38 war with the time period of the sixth seal.
The people of this planet will witness through the world media what God the Father (He who sits on the throne) does to Gog and Gog’s followers on the mountains of Israel in the Ezekiel 38 conflict. The bible says that He shows them His “face” at which point they will literally melt. This will create extreme fear on the planet. This fear is expressed in Revelation 6:15-16 which roughly states…..And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man hid themselves in the caves (fortified structures), reinforced buildings, etc. etc. in an effort to hide themselves from the “face” of God the Father because of what they had just witnessed ……..the eradication and literal melting of Gog and his followers.
9) The prophecies in Ezekiel 38 and 39 will be fulfilled
10) There will be a great resurrection of the dead. The dead in Christ (our loved ones who have died) will be raised and they may roam the planet for days as was the case when Jesus was raised from the dead.
Millions of Jews from the whole house of Israel will be raised from the dead as per Ezekiel 37 and form an exceedingly great end times army led by God Himself and will ride fire breathing horses as per Joel 2 and Revelation 9. Their mission to kill one third of the people on the planet.
11) From this great resurrection God will choose His first fruits from the whole house of Israel, that being the 144,000. Twelve thousand from all the twelve tribes of Israel
12) At some point during the time span of the sixth seal the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ will be joined and transformed and taken (raptured) to meet Jesus in the clouds. As per Isaiah 18 and Song of Solomon this should happen in the late spring or early summer. Preceding the rapture or catching away there should be the sound of a great trumpet and the display of some sort of huge banner to announce the rapture. (Isaiah 18)
Obviously I could go into great explanation and extensive detail with all of these 12 points listed but for today just the high points will suffice.
But I am sure you can see where Jesus and (also this time during the sixth seal) God the Father intervened for the church and the Jews in the greatest of ways by extracting us from harm (rapture) and transforming us into our spiritual bodies and resurrecting the whole house of Israel.
Like I said I don't know how long the timeframe spans during the sixth seal, it could be months. My guess is that we may still be here (just prior to the rapture) to witness God the Fathers intervention for Israel in Ezekiel 38 and 39 where He and His army takes His wrath out on demonic Islam and then uses this event as a last minute witnessing tool for all the "almost Christian fence sitters" to make a final decision for their salvation through Him.
As we can see presently from the news Gog and his followers are amassing in the Middle East. This appears to be the tee up for Ezekiel 38 and 39.
Also if the rapture did happen during the timeframe of the sixth seal there should be some major biblical press coverage of this monumental event.....is there? Yes.....just a few verses later Christ's church shows up in heaven. A great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. These were the ones who come out of the great tribulation.......meaning they didn't have to go through it. God promised them they would not have to endure His wrath and He kept His promise. They were taken from the earth during the sixth seal before verse 17 that states ......His great wrath has come……has started.
Was there any major biblical press coverage in Revelation 4 where the pre-tribers say the rapture happens? None
Gee that’s funny with a biblical event of this magnitude wouldn’t one expect there to be?
Seal 7
“When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for half an hour"
How in the world could this verse / statement be an intervention on behalf of Christ's church or the Jews?
Well if you remember your scripture it says that Satan in heaven is the accuser of the brethren day and night. There was no silence or peace because Satan was running his mouth day and night making accusations against Christ's church.
It appears to me that God intervened at this seventh seal by casting Satan out of heaven.
Now there is "silence" in heaven with no accusations and now millions of Christians show up there in heaven and Satan can no longer accuse them.......he's been banished to earth.
In conclusion......if one follows the seals for what they are......... holy interventions spanning almost 2000 years by a loving sacrificial Lamb and not horrible judgments...... then it is only logical and biblical that the greatest intervention of all, the rapture or great resurrection, would transpire during one of these seals. All of my biblical study and scripture cross links lead to the sixth seal intervention as the point of our resurrection / rapture along with a lot of other major events on the biblical calendar. So I don’t think you need to be afraid of the judgments of the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse I don‘t believe there will be any.............at least not from Jesus.
Blessings…..John B