Reply to Marilyn, Gino, Garry, KML (07/18) and Laurie (07/20)

Hi,

On July 20th, Laurie wrote: I had noticed along time ago that in Rev. 5:9 where it says "And they sang a new song saying...."   The use of the word "us" would infer that these are raptured saints.  But I also have a footnote in my King James Scofield Bible for Rev 5:9.  It says "Most early N.T. mss. omit "us" in v. 9 and read "them" or "they" instead of "us" and "we" in v. 10"  I don't know how a thing like that could get changed because it totally changes the picture, but it did.  http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2013/laurie720.htm


The 24 Elders are Redeemed, but are not the Church

I agree with the excerpt above from what Laurie wrote. I believe that the 24 Elders are "Redeemed" Old Testament Saints, and not comprised of "the Church". When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross many graves were opened, and after He was resurrected these Old Testament Saints rose and appeared to many. I believe they ascended with Him to Heaven and the 24 Elders are from this group. I have fully moved to the Old Testament Saints view and away from the Angels view, so I would say that they are "Redeemed".

Prophetic Author Marvin Rosenthal writes in The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, page 254: "Many of the ancient Greek manuscripts and the consensus of contemporary scholarship favor the omission of the pronoun "us" in verse 9 (Rev 5:9), as in the Authorized Version, and change the translation of "And has made us unto our God a kingdom of priests, and we shall reign on the earth" to "And hast made them unto our God a kingdom of priests, and they shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5:10). With the latter translation, the elders are now understood to be praising God for redeeming the church, of which they are not a part." (End quote, Underlining added)

It's important to notice in Rev 5:8, that the Four Beasts (a.k.a. Living Creatures) along with the 24 Elders all sing a new song to the Lamb. The Four Beasts are obviously not men who have experienced redemption. The words "us" and "we" just aren't appropriate for the Four Beasts to sing. As indicated above, a majority of the English Bible Versions omit "us" in Rev 5:9 and use "them" instead of "us" and "they" instead of "we" in Rev 5:10. I use the KJV, but am not KJV only.

Rev 5:8-10 KJV "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Rev 5:9-10 ESV "And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

Rev 5:11-12 KJV "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."

In Rev 5:11-12, the word "Saints" or an equivalent is conspicuously absent. Only many Angels, the Four Beasts, and the 24 Elders are mentioned in the heavenly scene.

However, in Rev 7:9 following the opening of the Sixth Seal (Rev 6:12-17), we see a "great multitude which no man could number of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues standing before the throne and before the Lamb." See the difference? I believe this is the Church following the Main (2nd) Rapture event which is called the "gathering together of the elect" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) where All of the dead in Christ are raised first, then All remaining living Believers are caught up together with them in the sky to be with the Lord. The Wrath of God follows this Rapture, starting with the opening of the Seventh Seal, and includes all of the Seven Trumpets and then the Seven Bowls, which all follow in numerical order.

At Christ's resurrection many which slept arose

Matt 27:50-53 KJV "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the (Old Testament) Saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Acts 6:7 KJV "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."

The Old Testament Saints that arose included priests who went into the city and appeared to their Levitical Priest descendants causing many to believe. I believe the 24 Elders are from this group. The Lord told the 12 Apostles that they would sit on 12 Thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel in the Millennium (Matt 19:28). This doesn't make them part of the 24 Elders before the Throne of God in Heaven. The Apostle John in Rev 4:4, saw 24 Elders sitting on 24 seats around God's throne, and he was not one of them.

Rev 4:4 KJV "And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I (John) saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

Rev 11:15-18 KJV "And the seventh angel sounded (Seventh Trumpet); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

The rewards are given to the Saints following the Seventh Trumpet, not before the First Seal. Therefore, the 24 Elders Crowns in Revelation chapter 4 are not from the rewards to the Saints. This indicates they are not part of the Church and eliminates their Crowns as proof of a Revelation 4:1 Rapture of the Church, as is commonly taught.

The First Rapture is for those who are ready

Rev 12:13-17 KJV "And when the dragon (Satan) saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (the faithful remnant of Israel, who will not worship Antichrist) which brought forth the man [child] (Jesus). And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished (and protected by God) for a time, and times, and half a time (the final Three and One-half years), from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make War with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The remnant is Born-again Christians left in the Great Tribulation. This is the point that I believe the 1st Rapture event, the "Open Door"of Revelation chapters 2 & 3 occurs and is shortly after the Abomination of Desolation. The Western Church is most like the Laodicean Church, and the instructions to Watch and Repent and be ready must be followed to go through the "Open Door" to escape the persecution of the Satanically indwelt Antichrist and his minions. Satan and his Fallen Angels are not even cast out of Heaven until the beginning of the final Three and One-half years called the Great Tribulation. It's only at this point that the man who will be Antichrist is indwelt by Satan and actually becomes the Antichrist and there's the need to escape.

Rev 3:14-22 KJV "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth (into the Great Tribulation, because they are not watching or repenting). Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Luke 21:34-36 KJV "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always (repenting), that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

YBIC,

Bill Griese