Marilyn,
I meant the "us" in Revelations 5: 9.... refers back to the 24 elders that were doing the singing, not the prayers. The prayers, of the saints, were included along with the 24 elders as being redeemed to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
The Saints are not present during the time that John is shown the throne of God. And the elders are representing the saints, by way of their prayers.
In fact, Marilyn, verse 8 of Revelations chapter 5, if broken down, clearly shows that "which are the prayers of saints" is a preposition in the sentence that explains the "golden vials full of odours".
Revelations 5: 8.........And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having everyone of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
the four beasts and four and twenty elders............this is the subject of the sentence
fell.............this is the verb
down.........adverb
before the Lamb.............preposition
having everyone of them........preposition
harps.............noun
golden.........adjective
vials...........noun
full of odours.............preposition
which are the..........preposition
prayers.............noun
of saints..........adjective
As you can see, the sentence structure and context clearly proves that the saints are not present. I am 52, so I am giving you my best remembrance of advanced english classes that I had in high school. This much I am sure of! This is NOT conducive to a RAPTURE!
The context and sentence structure are clear about what is going on in this verse. The prayers of saints are being held by the four beasts and four and twenty elders, in VIALS! Prayers can not sing! the elders and the beasts are doing the singing! They are also holding in their hands, HARPS and VIALS! The vials are full of "odours". Which are the "PRAYERS" of saints.
So the beasts and elders, obviously, are the main characters. They are representing the SAINTS, via the saints prayers, before the throne of God and the Lamb. The elders are part of the governing structure of GOD as being part of NEW HOLY JERUSALEM:
Revelations 21: 10..........And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.
11............Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12............And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13...........On the east three gates; on the north three gates; an the south three gates, and on the west three gates.
14...........And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15...........And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Notice the twelve gates of holy Jerusalem are the names of the 12 tribes of Israel.
1. Juda 4. A'ser 7. Simeon 10. Zab'u-lon
2. Reuben 5. Neph'tha-lim 8. Levi 11. Joseph
3. Gad 6. Ma-nas'ses 9. Is'sa-char 12. Benjamin
12,000 sealed from each tribe = 144,000 firstfruits
Notice the twelve foundations of holy Jerusalem are named after the twelve apostles of the Lamb!
Simon called Peter
and Andrew his brother
James the son of Zeb'e-dee
and John his brother
Philip
Bartholomew
Thomas
Mathew the publican
James the son of Al-phae'us
Leb-bae'us
Simon the Canaanite
Mat-thi'as
The 24 elders seen in Revelations 5: 8..........are the apostles and the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel! They are the gates and the foundations of the holy city of Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from God.
There are 12,000 sealed, from each of the twelve tribes of Israel, at Revelations 7: 4! That gives us the 144,000 firstfurits as stated at Revelations 14: 4.
Marilyn, I feel that the 24 elders are representing ALL SAINTS PRAYERS at Revelations 5: 8 & 9, with their singing. This would include every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. The 24 elders are saying:
Revelations 5: 10.......And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Some will be kings and some will be priests on the earth. But it is clear to me that the 24 elders and the 144,000 are an IMPORTANT part of holy Jerusalem.
AS TO THE NORTHERN AND SOUTHERN KINGDOMS lying dead in the streets of the great city Revelations 12: 8.
I know what you are saying. You have missed my point again. There are only 144,000 out of the Northern and Southern kingdoms, 12,000 from each tribe as stated at Revelations 7: 4.
Revelations 7:3 is during the time of tribulation. It is people who are ALIVE at that time. Read it carefully and it is plain to see that the 4 angels were told NOT to hurt the earth until we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Again at:
Revelations 14: 1........And I looked and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
The reason I feel that the two witnesses may be the 144,000 is because of what it says at:
Revelations 12: 7.........And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall over come them, and kill them.
It does not make sense that the beast would make WAR with 2 people! it also does not make sense that God would send such special individuals as Moses and Enoch, especially after taking the one to heaven as a special gift not to have to go through death and the other to have to go through death a second time.......Can't buy it! Also:............
.....In order for the 144,000 to show up with the Lamb on mount Sion in revelations 14: 1, they have to be killed and resurrected. I think that the beast will kill them, all over the earth, where ever they are, and then have their bodies sent to Jerusalem to put on display as a warning to any one else who does not want to take the mark of the beast. The 144,000 are going to be a thorn in his side right up until their ministry is completed throughout the world. Many thousands, maybe millions, or even billions will come out of the great tribulation, because of their ministry against this pagan system, called Babylon, the mother of Harlets, and the anti-christ and his false prophet!
The reason I think that they are the 2 WITNESSES, is because there were 2 kingdoms of Israel! The northern and the southern, thus, TWO witnesses, of 12,000 from each of all the tribes of the children of Israel, as stated in revelations 7: 4. This would give us 144,000 individuals, seperated into 2 witnesses or (kingdoms). You can have a WAR with this kind of arrangement and this many individuals. They will probably be many, many more people that will side with these ones going into the tribulation, and it sure is starting to make sense that there are going to be alot of resistors to this new world order, coming onto the scene. And they are going to be Christian and Jew alike, and maybe even some that have been shown the error of their ways, and turn to Christ, by the grace of Jesus.
Another reason I feel the 144,000 are the two witnesses, is because they are mentioned as being the firstfruits in revelations 14: 4 and the first place in revelations that any kind of (rapture, ascension, taking up, gathering, or what ever you want to call it), is mentioned, is at:
Revelations 11: 11............And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12............And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
YBIC
Mike P