Reply to Marilyn Agee
My previous post: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2013/billg810.htm
Hi Marilyn and Doves,
The word "Saints" in Rev 5:8, Strong's G40 - hagios in the Greek, is an adjective. Whenever you see "_________ of the saints", the word "saints" is an adjective describing what is in the Blank. In Rev 5:8, the verse under discussion, it is "prayers". We also see "prayers of (all / the) saints" in Rev 8:3 and 8:4. Let's look at these verses.
Rev 8:1-6 KJV "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."It's the "prayers" with the incense that are being offered on the golden altar before the throne of God, not the "saints". The word "saints" is an adjective describing the "prayers" that are being offered, not the other way around. It's the same thing in Rev 5:8, the "prayers of the saints" are not the "saints" themselves, so "they" in Rev 5:9 does not mean the "saints", but the 4 Living Creatures and the 24 Elders previously mentioned in Rev 5:8.Definition: 1) most holy thing, a saint
Part of Speech: adjective
I had also written the following paragraph in my August 10th post, which Marilyn commented on:
> > 1 Thess 4:13-18 refers to the Main Pre-Wrath Rapture event, the "Gathering together of the Elect" at the Sixth Seal (Rev 6:12-17, Rev 7:9-17, Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27), because of the phrase "unto the Coming of the Lord" and because "the dead in Christ" are not raised at the earlier "Open Door" Rapture event, which I believe is a secret event that will go unnoticed by the world. The "Open Door" is not a duplicate "Gathering together of the Elect" which is why scripture gives them different names. The Apostle John (Rev 4:1-2, A.D. 90's) and the Apostle Paul (2 Cor 12:2-4) were both caught up through an "Open Door" that didn't necessitate the Lord Jesus Christ coming back in the sky.Marilyn responded: "This is the First-Trump Rapture. It cannot go unnoticed by the world. Too many people will have disappeared."
My response: In Rev 6:12-17 after the Sixth Seal, we see Christ openly Coming in the Sky. Those with the Mark of the Beast hide in the dens and caves of the mountains, asking the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. So, would anyone follow Antichrist and take his Mark after seeing Christ come in the sky? Very few! This Coming of Christ Rapture event, or a duplicate of it, just can't be put at the beginning of Antichrist's reign and then expect to have the majority of the whole world follow him and take the Mark of the Beast. I believe there is an "Open Door" first Rapture event per the Lord Jesus Christ in the Revelation chapter 2 & 3 letters to the Seven Churches, and that this must be a secret event to the world at large. In Rev 12:6-17, Satan and his fallen angels are cast out of heaven to the earth. The Antichrist, now indwelt by Satan, is initially preoccupied for a short time (ten days?) trying to destroy the 144,000 plus others who flee into the wilderness. Then, after it becomes clear that God is protecting the 144,000 plus those with them, Antichrist turns from them to make War on the Saints. But, lo and behold, it's a remnant of the Saints because of the secret "Open Door" Rapture. I believe there will be some chaos in the church following the Abomination of Desolation. 2 Thess 2:3 says there will be a falling away (apostasy g646) from the faith. Although, I believe the vast majority of those who will fall away won't have been truly Born Again. So, the "Open Door" will be under cover of the chaos of many appearing to fall away from the faith, as well as the chaos of War per Rev 12:17. Most Christians are spiritually asleep and are not ready. They need to heed Christ's warnings to watch and pray always (repenting) or they will not go through the "Open Door" and escape the persecution of Antichrist, as per Christ's instructions in Luke 21:34-36. The 2nd Main Pre-Wrath Rapture event, scripture calls the "Gathering together of the Elect" follows the Sixth Seal (Rev 6:12-17, and 7:9-17). It is for All Born Again Believers before the wrath of God begins after the opening of the Seventh Seal (Rev 8:1,2). The wrath of God will include all the 7 Trumpet Judgments, and then all the 7 Bowl Judgments in numerical order.
Rev 12:6-17 KJV "And the woman (the 144,000 plus of Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days (1260 days or 3 1/2 yrs). And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Satan); and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child] (Jesus). And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (3 1/2 years) from the face of the serpent (Notice that this time is spent in the wilderness, not evangelizing the world, as some teach). And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon (Antichrist indwelt by Satan) was wroth with the woman, and went to make War with the remnant (those left behind) of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Born Again Believers left in the Great Tribulation).
Luke 21:34-36 KJV "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always (repenting), that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
YBIC,
Bill Griese